“Seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand.”
I thought that since we all seems to be deep in discussion about paradigms of thought it would be an interesting idea to examine someone else’s method in light of the recent discussions. I also thought that why not start with a “founding father” of the Catholic Church, Augustine. It is very interesting to me how these paradigms of thought—each persons way of understanding and categorizing the world at its most basic level, deeply and profoundly affects the sort of thought that arises. Above is a quote from Augustine, and a difficult one at that, given the sheer amount of ways of interpretations it. I’d like to give my spin on it and hear from others their interpretations as well. OK let’s jump into it.
I thought the above quote offers a very interesting look at two of the options available to us when we go to try and judge which method of thinking is most effective or even correct. We’ve had a lot of talk about the nature of our access to truth, and the variable ways of trying to grasp hold of it. I have previously tried to point out my own worry about our possible connection to the Objective given the epistemic quagmire we all seem to be firmly situated in as humans. From that sort of a perspective Augustine’s words ring of truth, as it does sort of entail the necessity to just deal with our epistemic situation, rather then to dissolve it. This of course could be done by allowing belief to inform the understanding.
Now, I won’t be so quick to burden the quote down with my own reading of it, since much I want I kind of want it to say doesn’t have any amount of justification. Certainly it is not saying (at least I can’t imagine it could be) that belief comes without reason, and then the reason is supplied. We all need a reason to believe something, regardless of the nature of the reason. We don’t just believe something. And as a convert Augustine I would imagine would understand that better than most, since he actually needed to switch beliefs. I do think though that we is pointing to a difficult truth about belief, that it does inform the understanding. Especially something like religious belief, which speaks more to the being of a person then their way of thinking or even doing. The Atheist theologian understanding of Catholicism is very different from the True believer theologian. And that, I think, stems from the fact that religious belief does not, and cannot be confined solely to the understanding (knowledge) but demands a much more holistic understanding—the whole of a person participates in “understanding” the belief, not just the mind, etc. Augustine I think may be pointing to that sort of idea, that belief stems from a whole person understanding and insomuch as that is true must to some extent be believed in order to obtain that.
I think that idea sounds wonderful, but is certainly not without pitfalls. The first of which comes from the rationalist corner, which can, very reasonably, point out that if belief informs understanding what ground do we have for judgment of belief. Understanding from belief will be formed by the belief, and the question that I wonder is one this model won’t every belief, be confirmed by the understanding? How can a catholic belief inform an understanding that does not support it, for example. Then what standard are we left with to judge beliefs by? Now, I know everyone will jump up and explain that, that is only the case if we take the quote literally as an unassailable dogma, true. I’m sure Augustine, isn’t trying to say that understanding cannot inform belief as well, there is probably some sort of mix of the two, when dealing with minutia, and petty examples, etc, etc. Sure, but past all that, that is the problem with that end of the spectrum. I bring it up just because It will be important later.
Augustine was a disciple of Aristotle, as much as he was one of Christ. Logic, and reason were of no little importance for Augustine, and his understanding of their role went heavily into his method of thought. Now, Aristotle was one to beautifully craft a logical understanding of the world. This framework began from some observations which was its conception, but sent most of its time gestating in the womb of theory, growing larger and more robust, until it was born back into the world. The problem is that at this point, what began grounded in the world has grown and changed so dramatically in its long absence from it that it doesn’t really fit in anymore. Aristotle, rather than seeing a need to revaluate it, by nature of this mismatch, instead tried to force the world into the framework. In the end we have a beautifully coherent story of the world, that doesn’t really match the world it is trying to talk about. We have a story that we can say, yeah that would be wonderful, except it is really not like that…
To me, I think Augustine commits the same error in his thoughtful machinations. Augustine, as a believer gathers up all the revelation, and scripture he must believe, and creates a framework to respond to it, but ends up wrong, by nature of trying to force a fit that doesn’t exist. In the City of God, Augustine tells us a wonderful tale of the history of mankind, from Adam, to Fallen Adam, to the eventual New Adam in Christ. And in his explaining of these basic bits of the Christian faith, establishing the nature love, the effect of Pride, the salvation of Christ, we get a theory that explains them in this elegantly coherent manner, but doesn’t actually fit the world.
Augustine’s theories on sex illustrate this beautifully. Augustine’s view demands the very negative opinion of sex. Sex must be the “transmitter” of sin, because it must, by his model, necessarily be wrapped up in lust; sex is always a sin, albeit a necessary one for procreation. Interestingly enough from these theologies arise many more that are now veritable Catholic “duhs” such as the importance of the virginity of Mary, even beyond the birth of Christ. What we get is something that really doesn’t sound right but makes perfect logical sense (ok yeah I’m reading my intuitions back into it, but I think I can to a degree but don’t really have the time to justify it here). On a different note, even Purgatory, stems from a logical necessity of Augustine’s model, which allows for death before the ‘purification of the soul process’ is complete in this life, and therefore demands a means to getting into heaven. All of this stems from one theory on the nature of the types of love we have.
Ok what do this mean for our original quote above? I think it offers a deep and unintentional look into what I perceive as a major flaw in Augustine’s method; belief of his theory, and of the unassailability of the logic that created and defended it, built a very specific understanding. One that doesn’t really match up to what the initial goal was. It also illustrates how easy it can be to actually fall into the rationalist critique that seems so obvious, and petty.
Ok, my goal here is not to disprove or discredit Augustine, my critique only applies to the method used and not to the validity of the content gathered through that method, although I could but let’s just stick to the method rather than to the consequences at the moment. Nor is my critique even put me into a position of correctness or incorrectness on the matter. I am really only trying to say, gee that doesn’t look like the best method, the costs are fairly high. Why maintain a really intuitively wrong notion of sex (one that demands sin in order to practice virtue, ie procreation) when one should really have just reworked the original thesis. Just because the logic demands it? Now critique aside, I want to return to my original position that yeah, belief must, to some extent, inform understanding. I wonder, if the recognition of the epistemic consequences of that position must also be demanded of the person; moving us soundly into the realm of fun existential paradoxes, but that is not for this post.
I thought that since we all seems to be deep in discussion about paradigms of thought it would be an interesting idea to examine someone else’s method in light of the recent discussions. I also thought that why not start with a “founding father” of the Catholic Church, Augustine. It is very interesting to me how these paradigms of thought—each persons way of understanding and categorizing the world at its most basic level, deeply and profoundly affects the sort of thought that arises. Above is a quote from Augustine, and a difficult one at that, given the sheer amount of ways of interpretations it. I’d like to give my spin on it and hear from others their interpretations as well. OK let’s jump into it.
I thought the above quote offers a very interesting look at two of the options available to us when we go to try and judge which method of thinking is most effective or even correct. We’ve had a lot of talk about the nature of our access to truth, and the variable ways of trying to grasp hold of it. I have previously tried to point out my own worry about our possible connection to the Objective given the epistemic quagmire we all seem to be firmly situated in as humans. From that sort of a perspective Augustine’s words ring of truth, as it does sort of entail the necessity to just deal with our epistemic situation, rather then to dissolve it. This of course could be done by allowing belief to inform the understanding.
Now, I won’t be so quick to burden the quote down with my own reading of it, since much I want I kind of want it to say doesn’t have any amount of justification. Certainly it is not saying (at least I can’t imagine it could be) that belief comes without reason, and then the reason is supplied. We all need a reason to believe something, regardless of the nature of the reason. We don’t just believe something. And as a convert Augustine I would imagine would understand that better than most, since he actually needed to switch beliefs. I do think though that we is pointing to a difficult truth about belief, that it does inform the understanding. Especially something like religious belief, which speaks more to the being of a person then their way of thinking or even doing. The Atheist theologian understanding of Catholicism is very different from the True believer theologian. And that, I think, stems from the fact that religious belief does not, and cannot be confined solely to the understanding (knowledge) but demands a much more holistic understanding—the whole of a person participates in “understanding” the belief, not just the mind, etc. Augustine I think may be pointing to that sort of idea, that belief stems from a whole person understanding and insomuch as that is true must to some extent be believed in order to obtain that.
I think that idea sounds wonderful, but is certainly not without pitfalls. The first of which comes from the rationalist corner, which can, very reasonably, point out that if belief informs understanding what ground do we have for judgment of belief. Understanding from belief will be formed by the belief, and the question that I wonder is one this model won’t every belief, be confirmed by the understanding? How can a catholic belief inform an understanding that does not support it, for example. Then what standard are we left with to judge beliefs by? Now, I know everyone will jump up and explain that, that is only the case if we take the quote literally as an unassailable dogma, true. I’m sure Augustine, isn’t trying to say that understanding cannot inform belief as well, there is probably some sort of mix of the two, when dealing with minutia, and petty examples, etc, etc. Sure, but past all that, that is the problem with that end of the spectrum. I bring it up just because It will be important later.
Augustine was a disciple of Aristotle, as much as he was one of Christ. Logic, and reason were of no little importance for Augustine, and his understanding of their role went heavily into his method of thought. Now, Aristotle was one to beautifully craft a logical understanding of the world. This framework began from some observations which was its conception, but sent most of its time gestating in the womb of theory, growing larger and more robust, until it was born back into the world. The problem is that at this point, what began grounded in the world has grown and changed so dramatically in its long absence from it that it doesn’t really fit in anymore. Aristotle, rather than seeing a need to revaluate it, by nature of this mismatch, instead tried to force the world into the framework. In the end we have a beautifully coherent story of the world, that doesn’t really match the world it is trying to talk about. We have a story that we can say, yeah that would be wonderful, except it is really not like that…
To me, I think Augustine commits the same error in his thoughtful machinations. Augustine, as a believer gathers up all the revelation, and scripture he must believe, and creates a framework to respond to it, but ends up wrong, by nature of trying to force a fit that doesn’t exist. In the City of God, Augustine tells us a wonderful tale of the history of mankind, from Adam, to Fallen Adam, to the eventual New Adam in Christ. And in his explaining of these basic bits of the Christian faith, establishing the nature love, the effect of Pride, the salvation of Christ, we get a theory that explains them in this elegantly coherent manner, but doesn’t actually fit the world.
Augustine’s theories on sex illustrate this beautifully. Augustine’s view demands the very negative opinion of sex. Sex must be the “transmitter” of sin, because it must, by his model, necessarily be wrapped up in lust; sex is always a sin, albeit a necessary one for procreation. Interestingly enough from these theologies arise many more that are now veritable Catholic “duhs” such as the importance of the virginity of Mary, even beyond the birth of Christ. What we get is something that really doesn’t sound right but makes perfect logical sense (ok yeah I’m reading my intuitions back into it, but I think I can to a degree but don’t really have the time to justify it here). On a different note, even Purgatory, stems from a logical necessity of Augustine’s model, which allows for death before the ‘purification of the soul process’ is complete in this life, and therefore demands a means to getting into heaven. All of this stems from one theory on the nature of the types of love we have.
Ok what do this mean for our original quote above? I think it offers a deep and unintentional look into what I perceive as a major flaw in Augustine’s method; belief of his theory, and of the unassailability of the logic that created and defended it, built a very specific understanding. One that doesn’t really match up to what the initial goal was. It also illustrates how easy it can be to actually fall into the rationalist critique that seems so obvious, and petty.
Ok, my goal here is not to disprove or discredit Augustine, my critique only applies to the method used and not to the validity of the content gathered through that method, although I could but let’s just stick to the method rather than to the consequences at the moment. Nor is my critique even put me into a position of correctness or incorrectness on the matter. I am really only trying to say, gee that doesn’t look like the best method, the costs are fairly high. Why maintain a really intuitively wrong notion of sex (one that demands sin in order to practice virtue, ie procreation) when one should really have just reworked the original thesis. Just because the logic demands it? Now critique aside, I want to return to my original position that yeah, belief must, to some extent, inform understanding. I wonder, if the recognition of the epistemic consequences of that position must also be demanded of the person; moving us soundly into the realm of fun existential paradoxes, but that is not for this post.
Let me make three responses, Porch Rat.
ReplyDeleteFirst, great idea. I think studying paradigms of thought is a cool suggestion.
Second, I don’t believe that Augustine was a heavy supporter of Aristotle. I’m not even sure if they had the original text of Aristotle in his time. (I could be wrong here, so someone correct me.) I’m pretty sure that Augustine was a Platonist. There was a heavy bias AGAINST Aristotle until Aquinas took up his case. So Aristotle’s rationality, etc. is not the same as what Augustine would have thought of rationality and faith. In fact, the differences are extensive.
Third, we can make NO observations of the world without certain assumptions. Without accepting certain assumptions, we, like Hume, must doubt EVERYTHING. These assumptions I will equate with Augustine’s “beliefs.” Even a scientist needs to assume many things to arrive rationally at his conclusions. So it’s not as if we can go find some assumption-less belief. In this way, Augustine’s quotation is simply speaking about this basic fact of human subjectivity: that nothing can be understood without assumptions, without “beliefs.” To go the other way around, from understanding to belief, assumes we can grasp something objectively; but we’ve had this conversation before.
Is this problematic? Yes, because it seems, according to this model, that we can “understand” anything we want, as long as we bring to the discussion the correct assumptions, the correct “beliefs.” But this is simply the nature of subjectivity. Besides, this is not to say that we can’t judge the different assumptions or “beliefs” using reason --- if an assumption or “belief” seems to contradict our reason, we may need to question it. But all in all, this will not give us anything definite.
However, most of our beliefs stem from something beyond understanding; they stem from personal experience. I would think this was true of Augustine. He was a thinker, a philosopher, and a bright man. But he didn’t convert to Christianity because he worked it out according to a complicated syllogism; and that’s not why we should or do believe. We believe because of an experience with a living and true God. I am purposely taking us a moment away from pure reason and argumentation; but that’s because pure reason and argumentation can’t shed light on the most important aspects of faith.
So yes, you must believe in order to understand. First, to begin with understanding will get you nowhere; (or it could get you everywhere). Second, no one understands or believes in Christianity on account of understanding. They believe because they --- like Augustine, you, and I --- have experienced Christ.
yeah on re-reading I do imply a real sort of actual connection between Aristotle and Augustine, which you are correct to point out didn't truthfully exist. I few stray words, cause a great difference in meaning, O well. Anyway yeah as a Platonist Augustine certainlly wasn't on the same page as Aristotle practically speaking. My thought was more to the method of reason, rather then the content of it. That I think still holds true. Just as I would say that despite Aristotle's deep critque's of Plato they both still exist within the same paradigm of thought. Speaking of Plato, he does work better here, just replace Aristotle with Plato and you're good :P But, yeah more on the rest later
ReplyDeleteNot to belabor a rather small point, but there IS a difference here in Augustine’s acceptance of Plato versus Aristotle. Plato’s deepest beliefs were in something he could not sense or prove: the Forms. Aristotle rejected the Forms, believing universals to exist only within physical objects. Plato was fine with resting his whole philosophy on something completely unempirical. It was not of importance to him. Think of his Allegory of the Cave. What and how we experience everyday life is very far from real Reality and Existence, he says. Beginning with Greek premises such as Plato’s Cave and Forms, Augustine’s leap to Christianity – and specifically, his jump from “belief” to “understanding,” and not vice versa – isn’t a huge deal. According to Aristotle’s empirical, much-more-material philosophy, Augustine’s statement and reasoning would not fit so well.
ReplyDeleteI belabor on purpose. Since the discussion at hand is paradigms of thought, the differences between Aristotle and Plato are immensely important. We could have a separate discussion simply on their ways of thinking, and the differences and similarities. In their historical contexts, they were hugely different – almost polar opposites. Plato’s Reason is not Aristotle’s Reason.
After RE-reading your last response, I realize that you DO recognize certain differences in Aristotle’s and Plato’s points-of-view. However, you still seem to say that they use/have the same paradigm of thought. This is where I disagree. Although they are more closely united than they would have liked to admit, there are huge differences. In fact, perhaps going back and studying this dichotomy – this first formal philosophical dichotomy – would assist our discussion at hand.
ReplyDeleteEither way, my third point in my original response is my major point. We always seem to attach ourselves to the tangential points and comments – although that may not be a bad thing...