Last year, the recently deceased Avery Cardinal Dulles, SJ wrote an interesting survey of the evolving Catholic understanding of the possibility of salvation for non-Christians.
Fun quote: Augustine’s disciple Fulgentius of Ruspe exhorted his readers to “firmly hold and by no means doubt that not only all pagans, but also all Jews, and all heretics and schismatics who are outside the Catholic Church, will go to the eternal fire that was prepared for the devil and his angels.”
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ReplyDeleteI remember reading this article. It is interesting and informative. Although the earlier quotation is funny, the article ends with this: “Even atheists can be saved if they worship God under some other name and place their lives at the service of truth and justice.” This is a pretty vague statement; however, I think it is vague on purpose and with meaning. How much do we, as Christians, REALLY know on this subject definitively? I don’t think the answer is too much, although someone may choose to disagree.
ReplyDeleteSomehow the idea of eternal damnation --- in the normal way we view and are taught it --- has always seemed problematic to me, in terms of my reason, faith, emotions, etc. For example, if there were a pagan born in the Mayan civilization that was sort of nasty and brutal; if he were not even nice or too “good” in his own culture, would his actions within in his 26 year lifespan really deserve eternal damnation? I know, some may counter with the fact that none of us deserve salvation and we all deserve damnation; and it is Christ who has won us the salvation DESPITE us. If this is true in the normal sense, then isn’t the creation of this Mayan man --- and perhaps the creation of all of us and our existence --- some brutal, sick joke? If I am put on this world deserving eternal damnation automatically, how does this fit within the statement that “God is Love”?
ReplyDeleteNow personally, I always seem to slightly alleviate my angst on this issue when I think of CS Lewis’ The Great Divorce. [At this moment, all readers who haven’t read this short book must get out of their seats, find the book, and begin reading.] Salvation, already won for us by Christ, is chosen by us. We choose salvation or damnation; we choose Heaven or Hell; we cannot blame our choices on anyone but ourselves.
However, it is hard to apply Lewis’ brilliant analogy to situations like pagans before Christ, etc. Therefore, I end this very brief conversation of my own with the same general idea that I usually end with: I don’t know, and I don’t trust someone if they say they do know definitively. Is it even something we need to know?
I've often used a similar example as your Mayan one, except he was Aztec. They're cooler. Anyway, the other difference was that he was the most moral, respectable Atzec there ever was, even though his job was to behead virgins as a sacrifice to the gods. The point being (harkening back alittle to my post)that it is the subjective truths we follow which carry the most importance when we are judged. Obviously I'm assuming the Aztec, by Christ's sacrifice if you will, went to Heaven. Argue the point if you'd like.
ReplyDeleteYou just reminded me of that with your example, sorry for getting side tracked. Somehow I feel like your comment is something skrig would say btw....
From a Christian perspective, would Christ come to save us regardless of what happened in the garden? Was Eden our "Heaven" if we hadn't screwed it up, or was it actually Heaven? I'm forgetting my theology...
If I understand you correctly Jonas, you find problematic the fact that we are born damned...if it wasn't for Christ who saved us and gave us a choice. I do find that troubling. I can picture God thinking: "okay, I'll create man, they will screw up and have no hope for salvation (though I'm not sure damnation is contigent upon original sin...). But then my son will go down there and save em all!" So why the extra step? If I may, it almost seems like even God has a Christ complex. Correct me if I've misunderstood your comment.
Yoda: I think that Christ’s “saving us” was contingent upon Man’s sin. But was Man fated to sin? I always remember the line from the Easter Vigil: “Oh happy sin, oh necessary fault, that gave us so great a savior.” (The second part may be a bad paraphrase.) Man’s sin was necessary?
ReplyDeleteIndependent of this, there is a separate question: Was Christ’s Incarnation contingent upon Man’s sin? I think that Basil answers “no” in a different blog response somewhere…but I think “yes.” Perhaps I’ll seek out that blog response and start thinking about it…
To get back to the Mayan/Aztec, I chose a “slightly tainted” man in order to make it more realistic. If we say that the PERFECT Mayan gets to go to Heaven, that isn’t saying too much; what about the 99.99% of normal Mayans? I know you can’t really put these things in numbers, but here I go: If, from the beginning of time, 99.99% of humans do not choose salvation, was creation a good thing? But, more importantly to me, what does this say about the power of evil over good; or the power of the fallen side of man over the good/perfect? I know, I ramble…
By the way, Yoda, Skrignov (a good but confused man) takes as an assumption the power of skepticism over anything supernatural; therefore, anything truly asking a religious question that has at its basis an assumption in religion is not coming from Skrignov---unless he’s being sarcastic, the jerk… I, on the other hand, while assuming the power of the supernatural over the skeptical, still have questions. But questions are not doubts---that is Skrignov’s problem: assuming the 2 are the same.